Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

Hi there,

Although <b> and <i> tags are (according to the W3C HTML 4.01
standard) not deprecated, their use is discouraged.
I used to use <b> and <i> quit often.

What in your opinion is the preferred way to go:
- use <em> and <strong> (with or without a stylesheet) for markup or
- use CSS (font-weight: bold; and font-style: italic) ?

Any input is appreciated.

Bart
--
Bart Broersma
broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_@tiscali.nl
(ff _ANTISPAM_ wegpoetsen uit dit adres natuurlijk)

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:50 +0100, Bart <broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_@tiscali.nl>
wrote:

> Although <b> and <i> tags are (according to the W3C HTML 4.01
> standard) not deprecated, their use is discouraged.
> I used to use <b> and <i> quit often.
>
> What in your opinion is the preferred way to go:
> - use <em> and <strong> (with or without a stylesheet) for markup or
> - use CSS (font-weight: bold; and font-style: italic) ?
>

I would stick to <em> for emphasis and <strong> because they do not only render
text in graphical browsers in a certain way, but could emphasise text in other
than graphical browsers as well, where as CSS will not do anything for a
non-graphical browser.
You can always change the looks of <em> and <strong> with CSS if you wish to do
so.

> Any input is appreciated.
>

Are you sure ? ;-)

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Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:50 +0100, Bart
<broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_@tiscali.nl> wrote:

>Hi there,
>
>Although <b> and <i> tags are (according to the W3C HTML 4.01
>standard) not deprecated, their use is discouraged.
>I used to use <b> and <i> quit often.

Where was this information shared at on W3C? I looked around and
didn't see that recommendation about using <b> or <i> being
discouraged as sometimes I use <b> or <i> just for visual versus
"vocal" emphasis thoughts that <em> and <strong> share.

Carol

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:13:31 GMT, from_you@nomail.com (CarolW.) wrote:

>On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:50 +0100, Bart
><broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_@tiscali.nl> wrote:
>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>Although <b> and <i> tags are (according to the W3C HTML 4.01
>>standard) not deprecated, their use is discouraged.
>>I used to use <b> and <i> quit often.
>
>Where was this information shared at on W3C? I looked around and
>didn't see that recommendation about using <b> or <i> being
>discouraged as sometimes I use <b> or <i> just for visual versus
>"vocal" emphasis thoughts that <em> and <strong> share.

Nevermind, I answered my own question.

I checked the elements listing page, where I didn't see <b> or <i>
being tagged as obsolete or deprecated ... then I read through the
accessibility page
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#em where it is said that <b>
and <i> were deprecated.

Oh well ...

Carol

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

Bart wrote:

> What in your opinion is the preferred way to go:
> - use <em> and <strong> (with or without a stylesheet) for markup or
> - use CSS (font-weight: bold; and font-style: italic) ?

Use <em> and <strong> if you need to make important text stand out.

Use font-weight:bold or <b> and font-style:italic or <i> if you want to
make text bold or italic for other reasons.

But when do you choose <b>/<i> and when the CSS equivalents?

Say you want to make all links bold, then use:

a { font-weight: bold; }

That's much better than:

<a href="..."><b>...</b></a>

But:

This word is <b>bold</b>

is better than:

This word is <span class="mybold">bold</span>

(particularly as the latter example will be false in some browsers!)

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

from_you@nomail.com (CarolW.) wrote:

>I checked the elements listing page, where I didn't see <b> or <i>
>being tagged as obsolete or deprecated ... then I read through the
>accessibility page
>http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#em where it is said that <b>
>and <i> were deprecated.

That information is incorrect, neither <b> or <i> are deprecated up to
and including xhtml 1.1.

--
Spartanicus

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

Spartanicus <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>>http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#em where it is said that <b>
>>and <i> were deprecated.
>
> That information is incorrect, neither <b> or <i> are deprecated up to
> and including xhtml 1.1.

The cited document "HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0" is just an incomplete
sketch, which itself says: "It is inappropriate to cite this document as
other than work in progress."

On the other hand, the corresponding approved document for WCAG 1.0 says:
"The proper HTML elements should be used to mark up emphasis: EM and
STRONG. The B and I elements should not be used; they are used to create a
visual presentation effect."
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#text-emphasis

So although the B and I elements have not been deprecated, the document
seems to recommend that they be not be used, which might be seen as a
milder statement. But reading closely, and reading the heading "Emphasis",
we might come to the conclusion that the recommendation is that B and I be
not used _for emphasis_. This leaves it open whether they could be used for
other things.

I think I'll stop here, since those elements have been discussed very much
on different fora, including this group, and it's not really a big issue.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:49:50 +0100, Bart
<broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_@tiscali.nl> wrote:

>Although <b> and <i> tags are (according to the W3C HTML 4.01
>standard) not deprecated, their use is discouraged.

<b> and <i> are perfectly legitimate. The history of typography is
such that effects like this have become so entrenched that they're now
effectively semantically meaningful in their own right.

If you mean "emphasized", then use <em> and CSS. If your first
thought though was "bold" (as a specific effect) then by all means use
<b>

--
Smert' spamionam

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

Bart <broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_@tiscali.nl> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> Although <b> and <i> tags are (according to the W3C HTML 4.01
> standard) not deprecated, their use is discouraged.
> I used to use <b> and <i> quit often.
>
> What in your opinion is the preferred way to go:
> - use <em> and <strong> (with or without a stylesheet) for markup or
> - use CSS (font-weight: bold; and font-style: italic) ?
>
> Any input is appreciated.

Here's my guideline for <i> - you can figure out the <b> one easily
enough.

1) If you are italicising for decoration only, and it has no bearing
on the meaning of what you write (i.e. it would not make the slightest
difference if it wasn't) use CSS.

2) If you are italicizing for a purpose that is covered by existing
HTML markup (like emphasizing or marking a variable) use the proper
semantic markup (<em>, <var>).

3) If you are italicizing for a purpose that is required by standard
style rules but for which there is not HTML markup (like a ship's
name, or the title of a magazine, book or opera) use <i>.

Re: Are <b> and <i> tags obsolete ?
 

Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> wrote:

> So although the B and I elements have not been deprecated, the
> document
> seems to recommend that they be not be used, which might be seen as a
> milder statement. But reading closely, and reading the heading
> "Emphasis",
> we might come to the conclusion that the recommendation is that B
> and I be
> not used _for emphasis_. This leaves it open whether they could be
> used for
> other things.

That is exactly my conclusion.