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Noozer 10-11-2004 04:22 PM

<Hx> tags usage
 
Just wondering what the proper usage is for heading tags.

Is it proper to start using <h3> if you haven't used an <h1> or <h2> tag?

Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as necessary, then
<h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc... Or, do you start with the closes
matching <h> tag and style only what needs to be changed?

Also, does it matter if there are unrelated areas on the page using
headings? (for example, a menu area with a main heading followed by category
subheadings and then another area on the page with a results heading
followed by sections with headings.)




Mitja 10-11-2004 05:38 PM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
Noozer wrote:
> Just wondering what the proper usage is for heading tags.
>
> Is it proper to start using <h3> if you haven't used an
> <h1> or <h2> tag?

Nope.

> Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as
> necessary, then <h2> for the subheadings under <h1>,
> etc... Or, do you start with the closes matching <h> tag
> and style only what needs to be changed?

The first.

> Also, does it matter if there are unrelated areas on the
> page using headings? (for example, a menu area with a
> main heading followed by category subheadings and then
> another area on the page with a results heading followed
> by sections with headings.)

I'm not sure I got this right, but I think what you're describing makes sense. A menu is, after all, one of the main sections on
every page. A special section admittedly, but still, the word "menu" is structurally closer to a heading than, say, a paragraph.



David Dorward 10-11-2004 06:01 PM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
Noozer wrote:

> Just wondering what the proper usage is for heading tags.
>
> Is it proper to start using <h3> if you haven't used an <h1> or <h2> tag?


That depends on your POV, the specification isn't clear. Most experts are in
agreement that H1 is a heading, H2 is a subheading, H3 is a subsubheading
and so on - so it wouldn't make sense to start with H3.

> Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as necessary, then
> <h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc... Or, do you start with the
> closes matching <h> tag and style only what needs to be changed?


Closest matching? You are forgetting that the default rendering is little
more then coincidence.

> Also, does it matter if there are unrelated areas on the page using
> headings? (for example, a menu area with a main heading followed by
> category subheadings and then another area on the page with a results
> heading followed by sections with headings.)


Again, a matter for debate. Personally I prefer to avoid it given the
results when you take the headings out of context
<http://www.w3.org/2003/12/semantic-extractor.html>. IMO if you have
navigation that complicated, then you should look at simplifying it.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

Toby Inkster 10-11-2004 06:05 PM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
Noozer wrote:

> Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as necessary, then
> <h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc...


Yes.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact


Andy Dingley 10-11-2004 07:25 PM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:22:36 GMT, "Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote:

>Just wondering what the proper usage is for heading tags.


There is none. Zilch. Nada.

Maybe there is. In some contexts there certainly is - many authoring
standards etc want to seem a simple tree structure, no skipped levels,
only one <h1> and so on. But in _HTML_ there is no requirement on
ordering them.

Do what you like. Be "sensible" with them, according to some standard
that keeps you happy. But it is definitely not "incorrect" to jumble
them.

The only real authoratitve guide is (as ever) here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1


--
Smert' spamionam

John Brandt 10-11-2004 09:29 PM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
People using certain Assisitive Technology (screen readers and the
like) can set the device to read only H1, H2, etc. They use this as a
means for "skimming." Using the H's out of order will created a
confused and less accessible webpage.

jeb

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 16:22:36 GMT, "Noozer" <dont.spam@me.here> wrote:

>Just wondering what the proper usage is for heading tags.
>
>Is it proper to start using <h3> if you haven't used an <h1> or <h2> tag?
>
>Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as necessary, then
><h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc... Or, do you start with the closes
>matching <h> tag and style only what needs to be changed?
>
>Also, does it matter if there are unrelated areas on the page using
>headings? (for example, a menu area with a main heading followed by category
>subheadings and then another area on the page with a results heading
>followed by sections with headings.)
>
>



Nick Theodorakis 10-12-2004 02:03 AM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:05:31 +0100, Toby Inkster
<usenet200410@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:

>Noozer wrote:
>
>> Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as necessary, then
>> <h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc...

>
>Yes.


<groping for counterexample> Perhaps when one is writing a page that
is a continuation of a long article, then one might skip from <h1> to
<h3> or lower. Although personally, I generally prefer that long
articles are delivered to me as one page.

Nick


--
Nick Theodorakis
nick_theodorakis@hotmail.com
contact form:
http://theodorakis.net/contact.html

Neal 10-12-2004 02:11 AM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 02:03:53 GMT, Nick Theodorakis
<nick_theodorakis@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 19:05:31 +0100, Toby Inkster
> <usenet200410@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:
>> Noozer wrote:
>>> Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as necessary,
>>> then
>>> <h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc...

>> Yes.

> <groping for counterexample> Perhaps when one is writing a page that
> is a continuation of a long article, then one might skip from <h1> to
> <h3> or lower.


This presumes the article has been split at a non-major section, which is
unwise. If the h2 section is ongoing, IMO h2 should be restated on the new
page.

Jukka K. Korpela 10-12-2004 05:37 AM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
nick_theodorakis@hotmail.com (Nick Theodorakis) wrote:

>>> Should the first heading tag always be <h1> and styled as
>>> necessary, then <h2> for the subheadings under <h1>, etc...

>>
>>Yes.

>
> <groping for counterexample> Perhaps when one is writing a page that
> is a continuation of a long article, then one might skip from <h1> to
> <h3> or lower.


Maybe a more logical counterexample:

<blockquote>
<h1>Hello world</h1>
<div title="content omitted from quotation">– –</div>
<h3>Bla bla bla</h3>
<p>Foo bar.</p>
</blockquote>

You would be quoting an external document, omitting some part thereof, so
that only content relevant for the purpose of quoting is present.

Browsers (or indexing robots or table of content generators or other
software) should not be expected to cope with this well. But here the
main problem is that they don't really understand <blockquote>.
If <blockquote> really means block quotation, it should effectively open
a new context, corresponding to embedding an external document.

So in practical terms, we might be more or less forced to use illogical
markup in such situations, e.g. deflating h1 to h4 and h3 to h6 for
example, if the block quotation appears under a h3 heading.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html



Toby Inkster 10-12-2004 06:51 AM

Re: <Hx> tags usage
 
Nick Theodorakis wrote:

> <groping for counterexample> Perhaps when one is writing a page that
> is a continuation of a long article, then one might skip from <h1> to
> <h3> or lower.


Page 1:
<h1>The Foo Bar FAQ</h1>
<h2>Foo</h2>
<h3>What is Foo?</h3>
<h3>Where is Foo?</h3>
<h3>Why is Foo?</h3>

Page 2:
<h1>The Foo Bar FAQ (cont'd)</h1>
<h2>Foo (cont'd)</h2>
<h3>What has that got to do with Hong Kong Fooey?</h3>
<h2>Bar</h2>
<h2>Can you buy Foo in a Bar?</h2>
<h2>In which Bars can you buy Foo?</h2>

> Although personally, I generally prefer that long articles are
> delivered to me as one page.


Ditto, or that one is offered the choice -- depending I guess on the
length of the document and how much I intend to read.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact



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