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-   -   quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6 (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t157103-quirks-mode-and-ie5-vs-ie6.html)

Jeff Thies 02-12-2004 05:35 AM

quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
Well, it's probably past time for me to regularly include doctype in my
html.

What is quirks mode and how do I avoid it. I seem to recall a specific url
is required.

What is the suggested doctype for html4.0 transitional? That's probably what
I'm writing.

Also, what's the differences between IE5(windows) and IE6?

I don't have IE6, but usually what I write looks very similar in IE5, Opera7
and NS7.1. Sometimes IE5 mac looks a bit different although Safari is good.
What do I need to worry about in IE6?

Cheers,
Jeff



Neal 02-12-2004 06:07 AM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:35:31 GMT, Jeff Thies <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:


> What is the suggested doctype for html4.0 transitional? That's probably
> what
> I'm writing.


See http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/...l#version-info

David Dorward 02-12-2004 07:58 AM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
Jeff Thies wrote:
> Well, it's probably past time for me to regularly include doctype in my
> html.


Umm... very much so.

> What is quirks mode and how do I avoid it. I seem to recall a specific url
> is required.


Quirks mode is when a browser emulates the stupid mistakes of its
predecessors so code written to love their errors doesn't fall apart.

http://gutfeldt.ch/matthias/articles/doctypeswitch.html

> What is the suggested doctype for html4.0 transitional? That's probably
> what I'm writing.


HTML 4.01 Transitional isn't suggested, for modern webpages HTML 4.01 Strict
is the most apropriate.

http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html

> Also, what's the differences between IE5(windows) and IE6?


IE6 has fewer bugs and fewer massive secuity holes.


--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>

Martin Honnen 02-12-2004 10:49 AM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 


Jeff Thies wrote:


> What is quirks mode and how do I avoid it. I seem to recall a specific url
> is required.


> Also, what's the differences between IE5(windows) and IE6?


See

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...hancements.asp
for details on IE6 and its two different rendering modes
--

Martin Honnen
http://JavaScript.FAQTs.com/


Jeff Thies 02-12-2004 12:57 PM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
> > What is quirks mode and how do I avoid it. I seem to recall a specific
url
> > is required.

>
> Quirks mode is when a browser emulates the stupid mistakes of its
> predecessors so code written to love their errors doesn't fall apart.
>
> http://gutfeldt.ch/matthias/articles/doctypeswitch.html


This is what I've summarized. Let me know what I have wrong.

Quirks mode in IE6 and fullstandards mode in Mozilla (NS7 also?) is turned
on by include a full HTML4 doc type *with* a url. There is no full standards
mode in IE5.

IE6 quirks mode is mostly about nesting boxes and inheriting border widths
and padding.

Mozilla quirks mode is about emulating NS4!

There is no rendering difference between HTML4 strict and loose at present.

Now if I can just get rid of the occaisional center tag I have to use in
IE5, I'd be HTML4 strict!

Cheers,
Jeff


>
> > What is the suggested doctype for html4.0 transitional? That's probably
> > what I'm writing.

>
> HTML 4.01 Transitional isn't suggested, for modern webpages HTML 4.01

Strict
> is the most apropriate.
>
> http://www.w3.org/QA/2002/04/valid-dtd-list.html
>
> > Also, what's the differences between IE5(windows) and IE6?

>
> IE6 has fewer bugs and fewer massive secuity holes.
>
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>




Steve Pugh 02-12-2004 02:11 PM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
"Jeff Thies" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote:

>This is what I've summarized. Let me know what I have wrong.
>
>Quirks mode in IE6 and fullstandards mode in Mozilla (NS7 also?) is turned
>on by include a full HTML4 doc type *with* a url.


Not quite. With HTML 4.01, all Strict Doctypes trigger standards mode;
Transitional doctypes with a URL trigger standards mode; Transitional
doctypes without a URL trigger quirks mode.

Recations to HTML 4.0 and XHTML 1.0 doctypes are slightly different.

>There is no full standards mode in IE5.


Correct, there is no doctype sniffing in IE5.x. It only has one
rendering mode, and that is what is being simulated in IE6 quirks
mode.

>IE6 quirks mode is mostly about nesting boxes and inheriting border widths
>and padding.


Mostly, yes. It also determines other things, such as whether
font-size: medium; is taken as the browser default or one size larger.

Opera 7 also uses doctype sniffing. Its quirks mode is an attempt to
emulate IE behaviour; hence it introduces bugs that Opera 6 did not
have.

>Mozilla quirks mode is about emulating NS4!


No. See http://mozilla.org/docs/web-develope...quirklist.html

The quirks are mostly minor details of CSS and HTML that most browsers
have historically gotten wrong.

>There is no rendering difference between HTML4 strict and loose at present.


This is why doctype sniffing is bogus - the rendering mode has nothing
to do with the HTML code used, just with what label is stuck on top of
it.
For example: The same code can validate as both Strict and
Transitional (as Strict is a subset of Transitional).
If the doctype is changed from <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML
4.01 Transitional//EN"> to <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML
4.01//EN"> then the rendering mode changes from Standards to Quirks.

>Now if I can just get rid of the occaisional center tag I have to use in
>IE5, I'd be HTML4 strict!


Centering with CSS is generally possible in IE5, though it does mean
taking advantage of a bug in IE's CSS support. What's the exact
problem?

Steve

--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>

GD 02-12-2004 02:38 PM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net> wrote:
> >There is no full standards mode in IE5.


> Correct, there is no doctype sniffing in IE5.x. It only has one
> rendering mode, and that is what is being simulated in IE6 quirks
> mode.


That applies to IE for Windows but IE5 for Mac does Doctype sniffing (I
think it was the first 'big' browser to do so?) and will get the box
sizes right in strict mode. It also supports the proposed CSS3 property
to select the method of calculating box sizes for each selector.

Although quirks mode in IE6 is supposed to make it compatible with IE5,
I have found that this is often not the case, at least not for IE5.0 on
Windows. I've often tested pages in IE6 in quirks mode and they looked
ok, but when IE5.0 loaded them they *seriously* broke. IE6 seems to
simulate basic things like the broken box model but there are other IE5
nasties it doesn't mimic.

I've never been motivated enough to look into it in detail. I just hope
people have learned from the nightmare of trying to support NS4 for so
long that it's not worth the hassle, especially when the users are just
too lazy to upgrade to IE6 or a better browser. I doubt anyone can cite
resource issues as the reason for sticking with IE5.

As has been the case with NS4 (or even still is for some), as long as
sites keep working with IE5 why will people ever be motivated to
upgrade? From their point of view there's no problem with IE5 - it
works.


DU 02-12-2004 04:47 PM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
Jeff Thies wrote:
> Well, it's probably past time for me to regularly include doctype in my
> html.
>
> What is quirks mode and how do I avoid it. I seem to recall a specific url
> is required.
>
> What is the suggested doctype for html4.0 transitional? That's probably what
> I'm writing.
>
> Also, what's the differences between IE5(windows) and IE6?
>


MSIE 5.x for windows does not implement any kind of differentiated
rendering mode. The good news is that with time people do upgrade their
browser. MSIE 6 for windows beta 1 was released in march 2001 IIRC.

> I don't have IE6, but usually what I write looks very similar in IE5, Opera7
> and NS7.1. Sometimes IE5 mac looks a bit different although Safari is good.
> What do I need to worry about in IE6?
>
> Cheers,
> Jeff
>
>


I recommend you always use a strict definition because in all browsers
supporting standards compliant rendering mode, a doctype declaration
with the strict definition always trigger standards compliant rendering
mode.

DOCTYPEs that will trigger standards compliant behavior in Opera 7, IE6
for Windows, and Netscape 7:
http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/doctype/

There are other related benefits to using a strict definition.
The most important benefits you get when triggering standards compliant
rendering mode in MSIE 6 for windows are
- correct implementation of the CSS1 box model: MSIE 6 in backward
compatible rendering mode still incorrectly implements the CSS1 box model
- faster parsing and faster rendering of pages (assuming your markup is
error-free: best is to use the W3C validator)
- rendering is closer, more consistent to what other W3C web standards
compliant browsers render and this should stay that way or get further
improved with time as browser manufacturers are aiming to support web
standards and they work on eradicating browser bugs

DU

Jeff Thies 02-12-2004 05:18 PM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
<snip>

> Although quirks mode in IE6 is supposed to make it compatible with IE5,
> I have found that this is often not the case, at least not for IE5.0 on
> Windows. I've often tested pages in IE6 in quirks mode and they looked
> ok, but when IE5.0 loaded them they *seriously* broke.


Like how? Overwritting content?


>IE6 seems to
> simulate basic things like the broken box model but there are other IE5
> nasties it doesn't mimic.
>
> I've never been motivated enough to look into it in detail. I just hope
> people have learned from the nightmare of trying to support NS4 for so
> long that it's not worth the hassle, especially when the users are just
> too lazy to upgrade to IE6 or a better browser. I doubt anyone can cite
> resource issues as the reason for sticking with IE5.
>
> As has been the case with NS4 (or even still is for some), as long as
> sites keep working with IE5 why will people ever be motivated to
> upgrade? From their point of view there's no problem with IE5 - it
> works.


Well you know, we have to support the major browsers. I was just recentlay
able to give up on NS4. Last year I had to download. NS4.5 in addition to
NS4.7 because it worked differently in that browser!

I'd love to give up on IE5, any idea what the IE5 market share is?

Is IE5 Mac closer to IE6 windows or IE5 windows?

You know how tough it is to have two versions of IE on a windows box!

Jeff
>




Toby A Inkster 02-12-2004 06:28 PM

Re: quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6
 
Jeff Thies wrote:

> I'd love to give up on IE5, any idea what the IE5 market share is?


In my experience, about 5% and IE 5.5 at about 7%, but both are falling.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132



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