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-   -   Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t123902-re-comparison-of-java-c-for-development-on-windows-and-future-for-them.html)

Bruce W. Roeser 01-10-2003 03:39 AM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 
Hi Belinda,

You obviously got a lot of opinions on this matter. Now I'll offer one.

I went through a similar decision making process just recently myself. I've
been writing C for close to 20 years and in the last 5 an increasing amount
of Visual Basic.

I decided to take a little stroll into the Java landscape for about 2
months - tinkering with Forte (Sun One, now) and the language itself. No
doubt about it, Java is quite cool. The language is so similar to C/C++
that it's hard to know the difference from a coding standpoint - except if
you're used to using pointers. Aside from that, the language is very C/C++
like. After tinkering with it for a couple months I decided that it was not
for me.

My thinking behind this revolved around the fact that I have been developing
to Microsoft platforms of one kind or another since they were invented.
First DOS (obviously) then eventually Windows. While no O/S vendor can
claim to have a perfect system - like it or not, Windows is the pervasive
technology - period. (You Linux lurkers can flame me if you want - you know
I'm right).

While you certainly could take the "all platform" approach by going toward
Java - it seems to me that you are in a similar position; familiar with the
Microsoft technology. Continuing to develop for the Windows platform is not
going to hurt you. Even if some of the other platforms gain acceptance in a
big way, you are still going to have a HUGE audience developing for Windows.
The thing I finally figured out was that, at some point in my career, I had
to make a choice of specialty - or constantly be caught up in distractions.
You might remember the saying "Jack of all trades, master of NONE". This is
the general philosophy that drove me to my decision to stay with the MS
tools - VB6/VC++ and eventually DOT-NET. I haven't had the time, yet, to
get into .Net - but I think our company is about to start working in that
direction.

None of us, as developers, can be all things to all people - we must
eventually specialize to stay viable. So ... for what it's worth (sorry
about the book) - I'd suggest that you leverage your existing knowledge of
the MS platform and go the C# route (or even VB) using the DOT-NET - if this
is a career decision, that is.

HTH,

-Bruce Roeser
Sr. Software Engineer
Stromberg, LLC
broeser@stromberg.com

"Belinda" <belindacur@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:41af5e48.0301080128.802710f@posting.google.co m...
> Hi All
>
> I am a C++ programmer and I am now planning to make a transition to
> either C# or Java. I am not sure whether to take up C# or Java. Some
> people say the future is C# and .Net and others say Java. I am
> confused between the arguments between the Microsoft and the Java
> camps. Can you all kindly throw in some enlightenment on the
> differences between C# and Java and what is the value proposition for
> somebody starting now in Java or C# to start in them. Also please note
> my primary development environment is Windows platform which language
> is the fastest to learn, performance wise and the future of the
> languages. I have heard that Java as performance issues is that
> correct and C# is only windows centric ?. But right now my only
> development platform will be Windows. I am supposed to make this
> decision for my company I am free to choose C# or Java.
>
> Which must I choose and why ?
>
> Thanks
> Bel
>




Simon Lenn 01-10-2003 12:41 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 
Belinda

I totally agree with Bruce. There as been so much of noise in this
thread practically appears nobody as really answered the question
except total diversion.

I had a similar situation I was programming for longtime in C moved a
bit to VB and then moved into Java. Invariably at some point in time
while building apps for Windows I had to talk to MS Technologies this
is very I started hitting roadblocks. Java and MS are like two
different religions which never meet. And the moment I could not reach
to Windows services from Java I started retreating from Java.

I would have wholeheartedly told you to go to Java if and only if Java
was one of the core Microsoft development technologies. The long
battles Sun is waging with MS will make Java foreign to the richness
of Windows technologies.

Cross platform to me today does not have much of a meaning with
practically over 70% of servers and 98% client computers in the world
running Windows. The death of UNIX is imminent Linux will kill and
bury UNIX. I would be least surprised if MS already does not have a
LINUX strategy the core .Net, SQL, Exchange and Office , VS would
already been in the Linux mint now. With all pervasive MS presence
makes sense to stick to MS if that is your primary deployment platform
if Windows is your primary platform and you are going Java you will
face more interoperability problems than any advantages.

Today C# as all the features of Java and C# as already been submitted
to ECMA standards body whereas Sun as not submitted Java to ECMA.
Compare language feature by feature C# as everything Java as and more.
The best thing I like of C# is the ease of programming, platform
integration, and C# SDK like Java is available for free download and
the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues of
Java.

If Java was created by James Gosling is match would be Anders
Hajelsberg the CHief Architect of the successful Delphi and Anders is
the Chief Architect of C#. So MS & Anders have learnt from C++, VB,
ASP, Java, Delphi and it is the refinement of all these programming
languages that is C#.

I cannot say anything else. I suggest to people posting further please
post something sensible than just noise.

Simon


"Bruce W. Roeser" <broeser@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message news:<WfrT9.100371$j8.2662175@twister.tampabay.rr. com>...
> Hi Belinda,
>
> You obviously got a lot of opinions on this matter. Now I'll offer one.
>
> I went through a similar decision making process just recently myself. I've
> been writing C for close to 20 years and in the last 5 an increasing amount
> of Visual Basic.
>
> I decided to take a little stroll into the Java landscape for about 2
> months - tinkering with Forte (Sun One, now) and the language itself. No
> doubt about it, Java is quite cool. The language is so similar to C/C++
> that it's hard to know the difference from a coding standpoint - except if
> you're used to using pointers. Aside from that, the language is very C/C++
> like. After tinkering with it for a couple months I decided that it was not
> for me.
>
> My thinking behind this revolved around the fact that I have been developing
> to Microsoft platforms of one kind or another since they were invented.
> First DOS (obviously) then eventually Windows. While no O/S vendor can
> claim to have a perfect system - like it or not, Windows is the pervasive
> technology - period. (You Linux lurkers can flame me if you want - you know
> I'm right).
>
> While you certainly could take the "all platform" approach by going toward
> Java - it seems to me that you are in a similar position; familiar with the
> Microsoft technology. Continuing to develop for the Windows platform is not
> going to hurt you. Even if some of the other platforms gain acceptance in a
> big way, you are still going to have a HUGE audience developing for Windows.
> The thing I finally figured out was that, at some point in my career, I had
> to make a choice of specialty - or constantly be caught up in distractions.
> You might remember the saying "Jack of all trades, master of NONE". This is
> the general philosophy that drove me to my decision to stay with the MS
> tools - VB6/VC++ and eventually DOT-NET. I haven't had the time, yet, to
> get into .Net - but I think our company is about to start working in that
> direction.
>
> None of us, as developers, can be all things to all people - we must
> eventually specialize to stay viable. So ... for what it's worth (sorry
> about the book) - I'd suggest that you leverage your existing knowledge of
> the MS platform and go the C# route (or even VB) using the DOT-NET - if this
> is a career decision, that is.
>
> HTH,
>
> -Bruce Roeser
> Sr. Software Engineer
> Stromberg, LLC
> broeser@stromberg.com
>
> "Belinda" <belindacur@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:41af5e48.0301080128.802710f@posting.google.co m...
> > Hi All
> >
> > I am a C++ programmer and I am now planning to make a transition to
> > either C# or Java. I am not sure whether to take up C# or Java. Some
> > people say the future is C# and .Net and others say Java. I am
> > confused between the arguments between the Microsoft and the Java
> > camps. Can you all kindly throw in some enlightenment on the
> > differences between C# and Java and what is the value proposition for
> > somebody starting now in Java or C# to start in them. Also please note
> > my primary development environment is Windows platform which language
> > is the fastest to learn, performance wise and the future of the
> > languages. I have heard that Java as performance issues is that
> > correct and C# is only windows centric ?. But right now my only
> > development platform will be Windows. I am supposed to make this
> > decision for my company I am free to choose C# or Java.
> >
> > Which must I choose and why ?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bel
> >


kim bruning 01-10-2003 04:43 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 

Hello Simon Lenn. I use unixen a lot so I thought I might clarify
some things from my perspective.

Simon Lenn <simonlenn@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Cross platform to me today does not have much of a meaning with
> practically over 70% of servers and 98% client computers in the world
> running Windows.


Well there's more than just corporate servers and clients in the world.
A lot of big business machines run some flavor of unix. IBM likes
advertising with some of those. A single server from for instance
IBM again can act as a host to tens of thousands of clients at once.
This skews the number in the servers area just a bit.

Often specialised devices are more likely to run a flavor of
unix. Like perhaps the rebranded SGI boxes I saw serving as number
crunchers for an MRI scanner.

> The death of UNIX is imminent Linux will kill and
> bury UNIX.


That would be strange. Linux is a unix variant itself[1]. Also, Mac OS X
seems to be doing quite well on the desktop, and that's a rather
traditional looking unix really. [2]

> I would be least surprised if MS already does not have a
> LINUX strategy the core


MS has an *anti* linux statagy. Technically they might be said
to be losing ground, though not at any perceptible rate for the
outside world.

>.Net, SQL, Exchange and Office , VS would
> already been in the Linux mint now.


..Net is covered by Ximian. SQL is not an MS invention, and SQL
support on unix platforms is pervasive. Office compatibility is
offered by multiple unix and linux vendors and project groups.
Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
other ides available. Finally Exchange is the only thing that
isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
superior tools to that. ;-)

> With all pervasive MS presence
> makes sense to stick to MS if that is your primary deployment platform
> if Windows is your primary platform and you are going Java you will
> face more interoperability problems than any advantages.


Sure, but if your clientele is the world over, you appear to be
advocating the exclusion of 30% of your client base on servers,
just as a start, even if your numbers are correct.

Not to flame you or anything, but that doesn't sound like such a great
idea.

> Today C# as all the features of Java and C# as already been submitted
> to ECMA standards body whereas Sun as not submitted Java to ECMA.


Sun certainly *submitted* java to a standards body, then retracted that
submission again. There's nothing stopping MS from trying the same.

> Compare language feature by feature C# as everything Java as and more.
> The best thing I like of C# is the ease of programming, platform
> integration, and C# SDK like Java is available for free download and
> the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues of
> Java.


If you say so. Isn't C# supposed to be a VM based langauge too?
In that case implementations of Java and C# ought to roughly be
equally fast in the long run.

> I cannot say anything else. I suggest to people posting further please
> post something sensible than just noise.


Very wise of you.

read you soon,
Kim Bruning

[1] Some purists might object to this phrasing.
If so :%s/a unix variant/a unix compatible os/g .
If you don't understand that, you have no right to object ;-)

[2] For some definition of "traditional looking", probably
containing references to NeXT.

Grant Wagner 01-10-2003 05:53 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future forthem
 
kim bruning wrote:

> > The death of UNIX is imminent Linux will kill and
> > bury UNIX.

>
> That would be strange. Linux is a unix variant itself[1].


Actually, it's neither "a unix variant", nor is it "a unix compatible os".

<url: http://kernelbook.sourceforge.net/pdf/ch-intro.pdf />

[In fact, Jon (Maddog) Hall tells us these days that it isn't even legal to
say that Linux is "a Unix-like operating system" because we have never
subjected Linux to the standards tests or applied for any such designation.
Maddog suggests we say instead that "Unix is a Linux-like operating system"]

And simply because you can do ":%s/a unix variant/a unix compatible os/g"
does not make the underlying "a unix variant" or "unix compatible".

> Also, Mac OS X
> seems to be doing quite well on the desktop, and that's a rather
> traditional looking unix really. [2]


Presumably the OP meant "The death of UNIX on the server is imminent",
because there's never really been any unix on the desktop to speak of.
However, as you have pointed out, this comment is actually 180 degrees
wrong, because unix on the desktop is actually becoming viable in the form
of OS X.

--
| Grant Wagner <gwagner@agricoreunited.com>


Marco Qualizza 01-10-2003 06:47 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and futurefor them
 
Daniel Billingsley wrote:
> "Sudsy" <bitbucket44@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3c836f4e.0301100053.6d9911cd@posting.google.c om...
>
>><snip>

>
>
>>MS might call
>>it .NET but it's really just XML, SOAP, WSDL and UDDI.

>
>
> You clearly don't understand what you're talking about.


Now, that's a nice, friendly way to start a critique. :-)

> .Net is just what
> MS calls its current offering that allows you to leverage those technologies
> (arguably better than anything else right now, at least from a development
> standpoint for sure).


Since you're obviously a MS afficionado, I'm going to need your help in
figuring out eactly what the MS APIs are that leverages, for example, XML
better than, again for example, Xerces does...

> You know probably all too well that the java
> community has been RACING to catch up in this regard.


You could say this from a certain view point (maybe the same view point that
claims that the wheel has replaced stairs, but I digress). From other view
points, you could also say that MS is desperately trying to catch up to Java
(with the usual MO of copying and rebranding the competitor's offerings)...

> MS has certainly made
> its fair share of mistakes in the past and still does, but a claim that
> Gates and Ballmer aren't as aware of the future of IT as anyone else is
> naive wishful thinking.


Not a claim that they weren't aware. A claim that they were slow to react to,
slow to embrace, the inevitable.

>
>
>>So why would you
>>need a proprietary GUI? In B2B applications, the GUI doesn't even
>>exist!
>>

>
>
> What planet are you on man?! B2B is not an "application", it is a
> technology (for lack of a better word) for linking applications, all of
> which have UI's of some sort.


Actually, B2B is a definition, a conceptual framework, at most. My servlet
backend which talks to Xyzzy server somewhere and grabs data to reply to the
query that you asked. Yes, there is a UI, between my backend and you. And
I'm sure Xyzzy has a gui for its regular users. but UI has no place in the
transaction where I grab data from Xyzzy...

>
> And if you read the trade rags at all you're aware of the recently
> increasing number of articles suggesting that the idea of a browser-only
> client sounded good but in the end just isn't going to cut it for most
> enterprise applications.


I'm sorry, I don't read the rags. I build the apps. I think you'd be amazed
at can be done with IE and Mozilla now-a-days...

> I'm talking about a TRUE browser-only client - in
> my opinion once you start saying your UI is browser + this or that (addin,
> control, etc.) then you really have more of a fat client with just a easy
> deployment mechanism.
>
>



Chad Myers 01-10-2003 07:24 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 

"kim bruning" <kim@NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in message
news:98tmva.m3u.ln@bruning.demon.nl...
>
> .Net is covered by Ximian. SQL is not an MS invention, and SQL
> support on unix platforms is pervasive.


Actually, SQL 7 and SQL 2000 are MS inventions.

SQL 6.5 and lesser were Sybase-based, but SQL 7 had a newly
rewritten engine. They did a fairly good job, but they mostly
rewrote it again for SQL 2000.

> Office compatibility is
> offered by multiple unix and linux vendors and project groups.


*snicker*

> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
> other ides available.


But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.

> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
> superior tools to that. ;-)


Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?

Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?

> > With all pervasive MS presence
> > makes sense to stick to MS if that is your primary deployment

platform
> > if Windows is your primary platform and you are going Java you will
> > face more interoperability problems than any advantages.

>
> Sure, but if your clientele is the world over, you appear to be
> advocating the exclusion of 30% of your client base on servers,
> just as a start, even if your numbers are correct.
>
> Not to flame you or anything, but that doesn't sound like such a great
> idea.
>
> > Today C# as all the features of Java and C# as already been

submitted
> > to ECMA standards body whereas Sun as not submitted Java to ECMA.

>
> Sun certainly *submitted* java to a standards body, then retracted

that
> submission again.


Twice, as a matter of fact. They never completed the submission process.

> There's nothing stopping MS from trying the same.


Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and cannot
be "pulled" anymore.

MS has also got preliminary approval for ISO standardization process.

> > Compare language feature by feature C# as everything Java as and

more.
> > The best thing I like of C# is the ease of programming, platform
> > integration, and C# SDK like Java is available for free download and
> > the best part of C# I like is it does not have performance issues of
> > Java.

>
> If you say so. Isn't C# supposed to be a VM based langauge too?


Kind of. The CLR is "like" a VM, but not true in the Java sense.
For all intents and purposes, I guess it is.

> In that case implementations of Java and C# ought to roughly be
> equally fast in the long run.


In theory, but apparently not in practice.

-c



kim bruning 01-11-2003 01:11 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 


Chad Myers <cmyers@n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:

> "kim bruning" <kim@NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in message
> news:69knva.ok8.ln@bruning.demon.nl...
>> Chad Myers <cmyers@n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
>>
>> > "kim bruning" <kim@NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in

> message
>> > news:98tmva.m3u.ln@bruning.demon.nl...
>> >>
>> >> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
>> >> other ides available.

>>
>> > But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.

>>
>> Let's not start another IDE war. Let's just say I'm a vi addict and
>> leave it at that, ok?


> vi is an editor, not an IDE. You're comparing apples to oranges.


But but they're both fruit, and apples are more tasty.

Actually especially vim has all kinds of hooks to external
applications which together makes for some truely decent
editing. Basically, all of unix is one big IDE (especially
if you install the "developer packages").

> VS.NET is the best C++ IDE.


I'll take your word for it, but I'll use vim to tangle with c++ thanks. :-)
(Like I said, I prefer apples. Can't argue with taste. ;-) ).

> vi may or may not be the best text
> editor.
> Actually, ed is the best text editor.


You do realise of course that ed begat ex (Ed eXtended),
and that later versions of ex included a VIsual mode.
On some systems, vi is just a symlink to ex. Just thought
you'd like to know. ;-)

Summarising, I'm using the bastard grand stepchild of the worlds best
text editor, namely: vim.

> In fact, the
> word "editor" comes from ed, not "viitor" or "emacsitor"


Sure, in fact vi comes from ed extended VIsual mode.

> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed


Odd...

kim@bruning:~ > ls -l `where ed`
-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 62573 May 11 2001 /bin/ed
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Oct 28 2001 /usr/bin/ed -> /bin/ed


>> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
>> >> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
>> >> superior tools to that. ;-)

>>
>> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
>> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?

>>
>> I think it's called finger. ;-)


> You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :)


Yup.
chmod g+w .plan

Now people can log in and do stuff like:
echo "G\na\nCome by the old docks tomorrow at noon or else!\n.\nw\n" |
ed ~chad/.plan

See? They can even use the worlds' best text editor if they like.
What more could you want? Mermaids?

Actually, that's quite a flexible way of dealing with schedules.

> What about that ever-popular quote service?


But it makes calendaring so hard....

rm .plan; # There goes the calendar
mkfifo .plan
while true; do fortune > .plan; sleep 1; done &
disown

in both cases:
finger chad@hiscoolbox.ohyeah.com
Should give people access to your calendar or quote service.
(we could do both, but that gets tricky. Maybe try netcat, hmmm)

>>
>> > Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?

>>
>> Why, to allow linux machines to displace windows machines
>> entirely of course. World domination!


> Erm. Right. *looks at watch*. Wow, Linux gained 0.2% on the
> desktop in the past 2 years or so on the desktop. At that rate,
> it'll be about 940 years or so before Linux dominates. ;)


You can see that on your watch? Is that the IBM one that runs
linux? Wow, cool! [1]

Well, anyway, as you can see, in 940 years it *will* dominate on
the desktop, or what's left of it ;). So there you have it.

>> > Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and cannot
>> > be "pulled" anymore.


<snip cool data>.
Wicked! I'm going to look at that.

> Also, Microsoft released Rotor (aka Shared Source CLI - SSCLI)
> which runs on Windows, *BSD, MacOS X, and Linux. It's full
> source including the CLR, FCL, and C# compiler.


Shared Source? Auh... that sounds scary... Got a link to
their licencing scheme?

<snip more cool docs. Thank you.>

> The main argument is that MSIL is actually compiled, it's not
> interpreted, so it doesn't have to emulate some system services
> like the JVM does (though I'm not sure modern JVMs do this or
> not).


Since java 1.2 java uses a Just In Time compiler.

Experimentally there's also been a Transmeta Crusoe masquerading
as a jvm. (Though it's not really a VM if you can kick it, now is it?)


This is a fun discussion!
read you soon,
Kim Bruning

[1] Linux already dominates on the wristwatch. The desktop is NeXT!

Chad Myers 01-11-2003 03:58 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 

"kim bruning" <kim@NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in message
news:g55pva.2ab.ln@bruning.demon.nl...
>
>
> Chad Myers <cmyers@n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > "kim bruning" <kim@NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in

message
> > news:69knva.ok8.ln@bruning.demon.nl...
> >> Chad Myers <cmyers@n0.sp.4m.austin.rr.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "kim bruning" <kim@NObruning.SPAMdemon.HEREnl.invalid> wrote in

> > message
> >> > news:98tmva.m3u.ln@bruning.demon.nl...
> >> >>
> >> >> Visual Studio is "Not The Unix Way", though there are several
> >> >> other ides available.
> >>
> >> > But not of the caliber of VS.NET, especially for C++ work.
> >>
> >> Let's not start another IDE war. Let's just say I'm a vi addict and
> >> leave it at that, ok?

>
> > vi is an editor, not an IDE. You're comparing apples to oranges.

>
> But but they're both fruit, and apples are more tasty.
>
> Actually especially vim has all kinds of hooks to external
> applications which together makes for some truely decent
> editing. Basically, all of unix is one big IDE (especially
> if you install the "developer packages").


Hrm, I disagree. An IDE is an "integrated" environment which
means it had integrated compiler services, debugging, visual
aides for building forms and such. Most IDEs are visual, whereas
VI is more character mode.

I would put VI in the same general category as Emacs, jEdit,
Notepad and Textpad. Obvious VI is better than than those in
some regards and worse in others, but that's a different
debate which I don't really care about. But to call VI an
IDE is a little misguided. VI is a very powerful editor.

> > VS.NET is the best C++ IDE.

>
> I'll take your word for it, but I'll use vim to tangle with c++

thanks. :-)
> (Like I said, I prefer apples. Can't argue with taste. ;-) ).


Oh, I'm sure many people don't like full-blown IDEs for development.
When I worked with Java, I thought the Java IDE situation was laughable
so I used jEdit and a couple other text editors.

However, from what I hear from C++ folk, if you had to choose an IDE,
especially for Windows development, VS.NET is miles ahead of everyone
else.

>
> > vi may or may not be the best text
> > editor.
> > Actually, ed is the best text editor.

>
> You do realise of course that ed begat ex (Ed eXtended),
> and that later versions of ex included a VIsual mode.
> On some systems, vi is just a symlink to ex. Just thought
> you'd like to know. ;-)
>
> Summarising, I'm using the bastard grand stepchild of the worlds best
> text editor, namely: vim.
>
> > In fact, the
> > word "editor" comes from ed, not "viitor" or "emacsitor"

>
> Sure, in fact vi comes from ed extended VIsual mode.
>
> > -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed

>
> Odd...
>
> kim@bruning:~ > ls -l `where ed`
> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 62573 May 11 2001 /bin/ed
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 7 Oct 28 2001 /usr/bin/ed ->

/bin/ed

This is a joke from the GNU humor page "Ed man!, !man ed"

>
> >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that
> >> >> isn't pervasive on unix. Unix people like to feel they have
> >> >> superior tools to that. ;-)
> >>
> >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
> >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
> >>
> >> I think it's called finger. ;-)

>
> > You can do calendar scheduling over finger? :)

>
> Yup.
> chmod g+w .plan
>
> Now people can log in and do stuff like:
> echo "G\na\nCome by the old docks tomorrow at noon or else!\n.\nw\n" |
> ed ~chad/.plan
>
> See? They can even use the worlds' best text editor if they like.
> What more could you want? Mermaids?


How does that schedule and set reminders? Is there a sync program
for my Palm or PocketPC? Can I invite other members and see their
free/buys status? Can I host an "online" meeting?

> Actually, that's quite a flexible way of dealing with schedules.


Um, sure. I'll take your word for it.

>
> > What about that ever-popular quote service?

>
> But it makes calendaring so hard....
>
> rm .plan; # There goes the calendar
> mkfifo .plan
> while true; do fortune > .plan; sleep 1; done &
> disown
>
> in both cases:
> finger chad@hiscoolbox.ohyeah.com
> Should give people access to your calendar or quote service.
> (we could do both, but that gets tricky. Maybe try netcat, hmmm)
>
> >>
> >> > Why do the Linux folk try to duplicate Outlook (see Evolution)?
> >>
> >> Why, to allow linux machines to displace windows machines
> >> entirely of course. World domination!

>
> > Erm. Right. *looks at watch*. Wow, Linux gained 0.2% on the
> > desktop in the past 2 years or so on the desktop. At that rate,
> > it'll be about 940 years or so before Linux dominates. ;)

>
> You can see that on your watch? Is that the IBM one that runs
> linux? Wow, cool! [1]


Damn I wish. Whatever happened to that? I saw it when it first
came out on Slashdot, but haven't heard much about it since.

Also MS and a bunch of watch manufacturers are coming out with
the Smart Personal Objects which run some basic OS but support
receiving events and messages over an FM sub-band.

Now I'll have to have a watch on both wrists!

>
> Well, anyway, as you can see, in 940 years it *will* dominate on
> the desktop, or what's left of it ;). So there you have it.


Exactly.

>
> >> > Actually, it's already done. The CIL and C# are standards and

cannot
> >> > be "pulled" anymore.

>
> <snip cool data>.
> Wicked! I'm going to look at that.
>
> > Also, Microsoft released Rotor (aka Shared Source CLI - SSCLI)
> > which runs on Windows, *BSD, MacOS X, and Linux. It's full
> > source including the CLR, FCL, and C# compiler.

>
> Shared Source? Auh... that sounds scary... Got a link to
> their licencing scheme?


http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/sharedsource/

It's pretty simple. You can read the source, play with it,
change it and such, but you can sell it. I think you can
redistribute it but only under the same license and you
can't charge for it and only for personal or academic use.

The point, as I understand it, is to allow people to view
the source, but not much else.

For example, the entire source of Windows CE .NET (WCE 4.0)
was released under Shared Source.

Rotor was an independent implementation of the CLI and C#
specs to show that one could do it without actually being
Microsoft (to show that the specs were complete and not
just a Microsoft trick to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy).

So the code in Rotor isn't the *actual* .NET code, but it
bears many similarities as most of the design is implied in
the ECMA spec.

But to prove it's independent, Rotor has bugs that .NET
doesn't and vice versa.

> <snip more cool docs. Thank you.>
>
> > The main argument is that MSIL is actually compiled, it's not
> > interpreted, so it doesn't have to emulate some system services
> > like the JVM does (though I'm not sure modern JVMs do this or
> > not).

>
> Since java 1.2 java uses a Just In Time compiler.


Yeah, but it's not quite the same thing from what I understand.

Apparently this isn't up for debate because I haven't heard anyone
(even Gosling who never lets MS get away with anything) criticize
MS' statements in this regard. Java is interpreted (and has a JIT
which improves performance), whereas .NET is compiled and the
compiled version is cached so future runnings of the program go
faster.

You'll have to talk with Anders and James to figure out the
details because I'm not educated enough on the subject to
discuss it thoroughly. I just know that the MS guys are always
careful to point out, "it's NOT interpreted".

> Experimentally there's also been a Transmeta Crusoe masquerading
> as a jvm. (Though it's not really a VM if you can kick it, now is it?)


lol, true. There are several Java hardware vendors already, as a matter
of fact.

> [1] Linux already dominates on the wristwatch. The desktop is NeXT!


Indeed!

-c



Mark Thornton 01-11-2003 09:05 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 

"Chad Myers" <cmyers@N0.SP.4M.austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:QUOT9.18715$aG4.863177@twister.austin.rr.com. ..
>
>
> um, not they don't. No contact management, no calendar management,
> journaling, instant messaging, info-store-as-file-store, etc, etc,
> etc. The only things that come close are Notes and SuckWise--
> I mean GroupWise.


However the info-store-as-file-store feature is probably best forgotten. It
has had so many serious bugs that I wouldn't trust it at all.

Mark Thornton



A Bag Of Memes 01-11-2003 10:18 PM

Re: Comparison of Java, C# for development on Windows and future for them
 

"Ingo Pakleppa" <ingo-immigration@kkeane.com> wrote in message
news:0g%T9.7903$hE3.445575@news1.west.cox.net...
> On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 06:33:20 +0000, Chad Myers wrote:
>
>
> > "Ingo Pakleppa" <ingo-immigration@kkeane.com> wrote in message
> > news:c1NT9.5555$hE3.123369@news1.west.cox.net...
> >> On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:24:53 +0000, Chad Myers wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Finally Exchange is the only thing that isn't pervasive on unix.

> > Unix
> >> >> people like to feel they have superior tools to that. ;-)
> >> >
> >> > Oh yeah, POP3/SMTP is far superior to Exchange. Where's that
> >> > all-inclusive collaboration package for *nix?
> >>
> >> IMAP, LDAP and NNTP come very close to Exchange's features.

> >
> > um, not they don't. No contact management, no calendar management,
> > journaling, instant messaging, info-store-as-file-store, etc, etc, etc.
> > The only things that come close are Notes and SuckWise-- I mean
> > GroupWise.

>
> Contact management: LDAP (and vcard). Calendar management: vcalendar.
> (although I have to admit that I'm still looking for a server component
> that handles that. It's a non-issue for my situation).
> Instant messaging: I didn't know Exchange or Outlook could even do it. In
> any case, gaim seems to do the trick for me just fine; I don't see any
> particular advantage of integrating that.


They aren't integrated. That's the business value Exchange provides. One
person modifies an MS Project document, 20 people's schedules are updated,
notification alarms go off on their PDAs, etc.

It's easy to focus on the technology and remain oblivious to the business
value.





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